Jullie ,
I agree.
Millie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Julie Hope" <epilepsyhealth@
To: <epilepsy@yahoogroup
Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: [epilepsy] Re: The "other side's response" to that 60 Minutes
story
> Would you two mind taking this stuff offline please......
> the two of you, if you don't mind.
> You are both way over my head and means nothing to me or epilepsy. Or am I
> missing something here? (:smile:)
> jh
> Julie Hope
> epilepsyhealth@
> http://www.2betrhea
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "nedra3boys2001" <Nedra3boysI@
> To: <epilepsy@yahoogroup
> Sent: Wednesday, October 28, 2009 6:50 PM
> Subject: [epilepsy] Re: The "other side's response" to that 60 Minutes
> story
>
>
> Jason,
> I have seen other lists get off on huge messes over this and I don't want
> to debate the whole issue. We
> disagree. I will say where the fake grass-root astroturfing occuring is
> that Axelrod a master but I don't
> have to......Business Week already did in March of 08. Like I said, I am
> a news junkie and follow this
> closely. I had this article in a file.
> The Secret Side of David Axelrod
> The Obama campaign's chief strategist is a master of "Astroturfing" and
> has a second firm that shapes public
> opinion for corporations
> ASK's predilection for operating in the shadows shows up in its work. On
> behalf of ComEd and Comcast, the firm
> helped set up front organizations that were listed as sponsors of
> public-issue ads. Industry insiders call
> such practices "Astroturfing,
> support. Alderman Brendan Reilly of the
> 42nd Ward, who has been battling the Children's Museum's relocation plans,
> describes ASK as "the gold standard
> in Astroturf organizing. This is an emerging industry, and ASK has made a
> name for itself in shaping public
> opinion and manufacturing public support."
>
> http://www.business
>
> Where was/is the fake grass-roots protesting? I don't see any here, fake
> or
> real.
> ------------
> Nedra:
> Astroturfing is slick and you don't see it, that is how Axlerod made so
> much money off of it. If it was
> obvious, no one would pay for it. It isn't as obvious as petitions or
> commericals. That isn't astroturfing.
> Astroturfing is making it look like it is SPONTAENOUS, not organized by a
> grou, sprung up completely on its
> own- the man in the street, the average public, Joe Six Pack, your
> neighbor and everyone you know thinks like
> this so you should too. That is astroturfing. They do it very slyly so
> you don't realize it is professionals
> and not artificial. They don't have mailing lists or send emails with
> form emails telling you to contact
> people. Having lay people do stuff like sending form emails, making
> calls, signing petitions is not
> astroturfing as it would be too obvious.
>
> Your family's suffering shouldn't be being
>> used to push a nasty talking point about "government-
>> which
>> is not even on the table here.
>
> Nedra:
> Why can David Axelrod's story about his daughter be on 60 Minutes by my
> family's story can't be used to
> present my position? Isn't he using his story to present his position?
> Isn't it being used to present his
> talking point? YES IT IS but you like his talking point.
>
> And nobody EVER explains to me why "government-
> able to get whatever.
>
> Nedra:
> I can explain it because I have read the bill. The bill says that if there
> is any change, ANY CHANGE in your
> plan that you have even if your employer offers (change is listed as
> provider joining or leaving, increase or
> decrease in copay, addition or subtraction of any coverage of service or
> medication in the formulary) you must
> leave the plan and go to the public option. Also the government panel
> will have supervisory powers to decide
> if your plan is good enough for you to continue on it. Also your employer
> can be fined if it is decided that
> his plan isn't adequate so he can decide, forget this, I can DROP my plan,
> put my employees on the public plan
> and be done with it and save a bunch of money. So that why people won't
> be able to get whatever. Also the
> bill says that even if you get through this maze of issues, you are
> grandfathered into the public option after
> so many years ( 5). And that is NOT from talking points but from the
> actual plan itself.
>
> House Ways and Means Committee (All Tax Bills Must Originate in the
> House): http://waysandmeans
>
> Actual Text of the bill:
> http://waysandmeans
>
> The House bill states that employees covered by ERISA plans are
> "grandfathered.
> pretty much what they want -- they're exempt from standard packages and
> community rating and can reward
> employees for healthy lifestyles even in restrictive states.
>
> But read on.
>
> The bill gives ERISA employers a five-year grace period when they can keep
> offering plans free from the
> restrictions of the "qualified" policies offered on the exchanges. But
> after five years, they would have to
> offer only approved plans, with the myriad rules we've already discussed.
> So for Americans in large
> corporations, "keeping your own plan" has a strict deadline. In five
> years, like it or not, you'll get dumped
> into the exchange. As we'll see, it could happen a lot earlier.
>
> http://money.
>
> Government-run health care is what they
> have in France, Switzerland, England, etc.
>
> Nedra:
> Yeah and I don't want it!!! I have run listservers like this for special
> needs families for many years. I
> have members from all over the world and have heard from families in those
> countries. I used to keep a list
> of the countries but it got too long. And surveys show that the people in
> those countries aren't thrilled
> either!!! Also those WITHOUT insurance in the US have better healthcare
> than those in THOSE countries!!!
>
> http://www.nypost.
>
> And what's totally ironic here is that people in those countries get
> second
> / third / fourth opinions with no problem.
>
> Not from the families I know in countries who are having a very hard time
> getting to see a doctor and yes they
> have national health care. They are waiting and waiting for the first
> visit. Too many that I know don't have
> the options we have and if the plans in other countries were so wonderful,
> why aren't any being used as models
> or being pointed to by those advocating the plans? BECAUSE the other
> countries are having problems! I have
> numerous articles from the UK, Canada, Japan, about problems with their
> health care programs.
>
> http://www.dailymai
>
> http://www.dailymai
>
> Look at the wait time for cancer surgery in Canada
> http://www.health.
>
> Canada's top doctor: Health care system 'imploding'.
> 'We all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians
> realize'...
> http://www.google.
>
> In other words... the government shouldn't do anything about health care
> since the politicians already get it for free?
> It's like saying the President shouldn't address homelessness because he
> already has a White House to live in.
>
> No, I said they shouldn't make a plan that forces us to live under while
> they live under another.
>
>
> The thing has to make money or else it isn't a competitor, that's the
> whole
>> point! Other insurance companies get free reign ("freedom") to charge
>> whatever premiums they want in states where governors opt-out for
>> freedom's
>> sake.
>
>
>> Being able to shop for insurance from state to state is a popular talking
>> point, and a deceitful proposal. We've tried this already with the credit
>> card companies.
>>
>> It backfired totally because it's an obvious trick. The states are not
>> supposed to be competing with each other, the companies are.
> ------------
> Nedra
> I didn't say the states were to compete. But the companies can't compete
> because they are tied by STATE
> mandates and can't write polices across state lines. I put enough words
> in my mouth and don't need
> assistance.
> ------------
>
>
> Being able to
>> choose between Acme Insurance of Connecticut and Acme Insurance of
>> Tennessee
>> doesn't mean Acme Insurance better compete with itself now and lower
>> prices-
>> that's absurd! It means both Connecticut and Tennessee better ditch their
>> consumer protections, fast, because Acme Insurance is the real customer
>> who's shopping from state-to-state, not you.
> ------------
> Nedra
> It seems to work well for car insurance companies. The prices are kept in
> check and people can compare
> coverage and price. Look at lasik surgery. Insurance doesn't cover that
> but there is feirce advertizement
> for it and payment plans. People can shop around, ask questions, compare,
> ect. The market can work. The
> price for that has dropped because the government is out of it.
>>
>> Once "you" can "shop from state-to-state"
>> all
>> 50 states and their laws pertaining to health care. It will identify the
>> state that is most willing to let them screw people over, charge immense
>> premiums, not cover anything, etc. And it will shut down 49 of its
>> operations and move to that one state. And then, you can just "shop to
>> that
>> state" or be uninsured.
>> Do you know why you always send your credit card bill to a company in
>> North
>> Dakota? The credit card companies didn't all move there because of the
>> weather! Letting North Dakota regulate the credit industry for the entire
>> nation hasn't worked out very well.
>>----------
> Nedra:
> I have lived in many states and kept the same credit cards. That doesn't
> happen with health insurance. That
> is the difference. You have to have a policy for the state you live in
> and one that complies with the state
> mandates. That limits competition.
>
>> As for tort reform, that IS a problem and IS a part of the bill being
>> considered. But according to the CBO the money we will save with that is
>> a
>> drop in the bucket, and they might not have fleshed out its line item in
>> the
>> bill. Maybe.
> ------------
> Nedra
> What saving? Don't count on it. We will ALL be paying and paying for the
> free stuff and we won't be getting
> the coverage we already have. There is no free lunch.
> http://www.washingt
>
> Also the CBO analysis is cooked books when you look at the details! It is
> benefits and payments for different
> amounts of years. I would hate for my house payment to work that way!
>
> Once again, if the only people who are in a position to do anything about
>> our messed up health care system are already automatically getting it for
>> free (as part of it being messed up BTW), it doesn't mean health care
>> should
>> never be fixed.
> ------------
> Nedra:
> I didn't and no one else voted for Axlerod. He is not in any or has he
> ever been in an elected position. He
> isn't even in a cabinet position that goes before congress. Health care
> could be fixed but considering we
> have the best health care in the world, I don't expect the government to
> fix it. Please show me something the
> federal government has fixed in the past before we turn over our health
> care. Before I hire someone, I look
> at their resume. What have they done or done well? Look at the health
> services the federal government does
> run- Indian Health Service and the Veterans Administration.
> http://online.
>
> Women have been in the armed services for 60 years but providing pap
> smears and mamograms is still a tough
> one.....
> http://www.mcclatch
> Or the problem with being exposed to more diseases then when you went in
> http://www.attorney
>
> I am not looking for any sympathy and did not ask for any. There are many
> families who are struggling. My
> guys are getting by. I don't want the government hindering our health
> care. I haven't seen the government
> fix anything but they sure can churn out the red tape. My medical care
> doesn't need any more red tape. Red
> tape costs money and people and doesn't treat anyone medically.
>
> I don't want to get drawn in a debate. I know I will disagree with others
> and that is okay. Our country is
> founded on people expressing their views, speaking their minds, and voting
> on issues. I am just writing this
> to present my views and to offer some links to back up my position. If
> others disagree, fine, they are
> welcome to their opinion. I just put in the links to show this is what I
> think and why or where I based it
> on. I do research and try to find where the information and data comes
> from but I realize opinions can vary.
>
> In Christ,
> Nedra 2 of 5,
> Borg Mom Resistance is Futile in finding what works for my kids with God's
> help
> Nick, 23, AS, ADHD, + CAPD
> Ben, 21, AS + ADHD
> Matt, 18, very AS, ADHD,+Complex Partial Seizures of the Temporo- Limbic
> region
>
> God knew there would be children with Autism - and in honor of them He
> made
> the planets in the solar system spin round and round, round and round.....
> Author, unknown
>
> and all the accomplishments of my family are a gift from God
>
>
>
>
> ------------
>
> Just a friendly reminder: Please remember to sign your post and remember
> to clean up messages when you reply
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>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------
>
> Just a friendly reminder: Please remember to sign your post and remember
> to clean up messages when you reply to them. This is especially important
> if you are on digest. This not only helps out the list owner but, it
> makes messages much easier to read when they arrive in our inboxes.
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
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