Jason,
I have seen other lists get off on huge messes over this and I don't want to debate the whole issue. We disagree. I will say where the fake grass-root astroturfing occuring is that Axelrod a master but I don't have to......Business Week already did in March of 08. Like I said, I am a news junkie and follow this closely. I had this article in a file.
The Secret Side of David Axelrod
The Obama campaign's chief strategist is a master of "Astroturfing" and has a second firm that shapes public opinion for corporations
ASK's predilection for operating in the shadows shows up in its work. On behalf of ComEd and Comcast, the firm helped set up front organizations that were listed as sponsors of public-issue ads. Industry insiders call such practices "Astroturfing,
http://www.business
Where was/is the fake grass-roots protesting? I don't see any here, fake or
real.
------------
Nedra:
Astroturfing is slick and you don't see it, that is how Axlerod made so much money off of it. If it was obvious, no one would pay for it. It isn't as obvious as petitions or commericals. That isn't astroturfing. Astroturfing is making it look like it is SPONTAENOUS, not organized by a grou, sprung up completely on its own- the man in the street, the average public, Joe Six Pack, your neighbor and everyone you know thinks like this so you should too. That is astroturfing. They do it very slyly so you don't realize it is professionals and not artificial. They don't have mailing lists or send emails with form emails telling you to contact people. Having lay people do stuff like sending form emails, making calls, signing petitions is not astroturfing as it would be too obvious.
Your family's suffering shouldn't be being
> used to push a nasty talking point about "government-
> is not even on the table here.
Nedra:
Why can David Axelrod's story about his daughter be on 60 Minutes by my family's story can't be used to present my position? Isn't he using his story to present his position? Isn't it being used to present his talking point? YES IT IS but you like his talking point.
And nobody EVER explains to me why "government-
Nedra:
I can explain it because I have read the bill. The bill says that if there is any change, ANY CHANGE in your plan that you have even if your employer offers (change is listed as provider joining or leaving, increase or decrease in copay, addition or subtraction of any coverage of service or medication in the formulary) you must leave the plan and go to the public option. Also the government panel will have supervisory powers to decide if your plan is good enough for you to continue on it. Also your employer can be fined if it is decided that his plan isn't adequate so he can decide, forget this, I can DROP my plan, put my employees on the public plan and be done with it and save a bunch of money. So that why people won't be able to get whatever. Also the bill says that even if you get through this maze of issues, you are grandfathered into the public option after so many years ( 5). And that is NOT from talking points but from the actual plan itself.
House Ways and Means Committee (All Tax Bills Must Originate in the House): http://waysandmeans
Actual Text of the bill: http://waysandmeans
The House bill states that employees covered by ERISA plans are "grandfathered.
But read on.
The bill gives ERISA employers a five-year grace period when they can keep offering plans free from the restrictions of the "qualified" policies offered on the exchanges. But after five years, they would have to offer only approved plans, with the myriad rules we've already discussed. So for Americans in large corporations, "keeping your own plan" has a strict deadline. In five years, like it or not, you'll get dumped into the exchange. As we'll see, it could happen a lot earlier.
http://money.
Government-run health care is what they
have in France, Switzerland, England, etc.
Nedra:
Yeah and I don't want it!!! I have run listservers like this for special needs families for many years. I have members from all over the world and have heard from families in those countries. I used to keep a list of the countries but it got too long. And surveys show that the people in those countries aren't thrilled either!!! Also those WITHOUT insurance in the US have better healthcare than those in THOSE countries!!!
http://www.nypost.
And what's totally ironic here is that people in those countries get second
/ third / fourth opinions with no problem.
Not from the families I know in countries who are having a very hard time getting to see a doctor and yes they have national health care. They are waiting and waiting for the first visit. Too many that I know don't have the options we have and if the plans in other countries were so wonderful, why aren't any being used as models or being pointed to by those advocating the plans? BECAUSE the other countries are having problems! I have numerous articles from the UK, Canada, Japan, about problems with their health care programs.
http://www.dailymai
http://www.dailymai
Look at the wait time for cancer surgery in Canada
http://www.health.
Canada's top doctor: Health care system 'imploding'.
'We all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize'...
http://www.google.
In other words... the government shouldn't do anything about health care
since the politicians already get it for free?
It's like saying the President shouldn't address homelessness because he
already has a White House to live in.
No, I said they shouldn't make a plan that forces us to live under while they live under another.
The thing has to make money or else it isn't a competitor, that's the whole
> point! Other insurance companies get free reign ("freedom") to charge
> whatever premiums they want in states where governors opt-out for freedom's
> sake.
> Being able to shop for insurance from state to state is a popular talking
> point, and a deceitful proposal. We've tried this already with the credit
> card companies.
>
> It backfired totally because it's an obvious trick. The states are not
> supposed to be competing with each other, the companies are.
------------
Nedra
I didn't say the states were to compete. But the companies can't compete because they are tied by STATE mandates and can't write polices across state lines. I put enough words in my mouth and don't need assistance.
------------
Being able to
> choose between Acme Insurance of Connecticut and Acme Insurance of Tennessee
> doesn't mean Acme Insurance better compete with itself now and lower prices-
> that's absurd! It means both Connecticut and Tennessee better ditch their
> consumer protections, fast, because Acme Insurance is the real customer
> who's shopping from state-to-state, not you.
------------
Nedra
It seems to work well for car insurance companies. The prices are kept in check and people can compare coverage and price. Look at lasik surgery. Insurance doesn't cover that but there is feirce advertizement for it and payment plans. People can shop around, ask questions, compare, ect. The market can work. The price for that has dropped because the government is out of it.
>
> Once "you" can "shop from state-to-state"
> 50 states and their laws pertaining to health care. It will identify the
> state that is most willing to let them screw people over, charge immense
> premiums, not cover anything, etc. And it will shut down 49 of its
> operations and move to that one state. And then, you can just "shop to that
> state" or be uninsured.
> Do you know why you always send your credit card bill to a company in North
> Dakota? The credit card companies didn't all move there because of the
> weather! Letting North Dakota regulate the credit industry for the entire
> nation hasn't worked out very well.
>-----------
Nedra:
I have lived in many states and kept the same credit cards. That doesn't happen with health insurance. That is the difference. You have to have a policy for the state you live in and one that complies with the state mandates. That limits competition.
> As for tort reform, that IS a problem and IS a part of the bill being
> considered. But according to the CBO the money we will save with that is a
> drop in the bucket, and they might not have fleshed out its line item in the
> bill. Maybe.
------------
Nedra
What saving? Don't count on it. We will ALL be paying and paying for the free stuff and we won't be getting the coverage we already have. There is no free lunch.
http://www.washingt
Also the CBO analysis is cooked books when you look at the details! It is benefits and payments for different amounts of years. I would hate for my house payment to work that way!
Once again, if the only people who are in a position to do anything about
> our messed up health care system are already automatically getting it for
> free (as part of it being messed up BTW), it doesn't mean health care should
> never be fixed.
------------
Nedra:
I didn't and no one else voted for Axlerod. He is not in any or has he ever been in an elected position. He isn't even in a cabinet position that goes before congress. Health care could be fixed but considering we have the best health care in the world, I don't expect the government to fix it. Please show me something the federal government has fixed in the past before we turn over our health care. Before I hire someone, I look at their resume. What have they done or done well? Look at the health services the federal government does run- Indian Health Service and the Veterans Administration.
http://online.
Women have been in the armed services for 60 years but providing pap smears and mamograms is still a tough one.....
http://www.mcclatch
Or the problem with being exposed to more diseases then when you went in
http://www.attorney
I am not looking for any sympathy and did not ask for any. There are many families who are struggling. My guys are getting by. I don't want the government hindering our health care. I haven't seen the government fix anything but they sure can churn out the red tape. My medical care doesn't need any more red tape. Red tape costs money and people and doesn't treat anyone medically.
I don't want to get drawn in a debate. I know I will disagree with others and that is okay. Our country is founded on people expressing their views, speaking their minds, and voting on issues. I am just writing this to present my views and to offer some links to back up my position. If others disagree, fine, they are welcome to their opinion. I just put in the links to show this is what I think and why or where I based it on. I do research and try to find where the information and data comes from but I realize opinions can vary.
In Christ,
Nedra 2 of 5,
Borg Mom Resistance is Futile in finding what works for my kids with God's help
Nick, 23, AS, ADHD, + CAPD
Ben, 21, AS + ADHD
Matt, 18, very AS, ADHD,+Complex Partial Seizures of the Temporo- Limbic region
God knew there would be children with Autism - and in honor of them He made
the planets in the solar system spin round and round, round and round.....
Author, unknown
and all the accomplishments of my family are a gift from God
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